War

Discuss non-musical topics that are not related to 808 State or music.

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Postby A Gillian S » 11 Apr 2003 21:44

ahem... al jezeera? not the most credible source...
if we lived in a dictatorship our pr would be as extensive as Iraq's.
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Postby Supraset » 02 Jun 2003 07:16

Well I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents... since I am an American and I, judging from my political views am not that left (or as left as I thought).
Here are my views as an American as why we (US) went to war with Iraq.

1. Saddam's regime was potentially dangerous on the scale of a Stalin or Hitler. He had (at one point) chemical weapons and Iraq has the material for nuclear and/or radioactive weapons. (Note some of the radioactive material is unaccounted for after the war)

2. Saddam never disarmed as by the resolutions signed by the UN.

3. Saddam's regime is directly responsible for mass deaths and torture of Iraqui people. Saddam was a student of Stalin... he used torture and executions to keep power. Read about Stalin and you will find Saddam is a little Stalin.

4. 9/11 changed everything for us Americans. We are now being proactive on world issues. Saddam's regime was on the top of our list as a major threat to our security.

Now here are my personal views.

1. I live close to the largest Iraqui population in the United States. Here Bush is a hero. These people lived first hand through the terror of Saddam. Again I say read more about Saddam and Stalin.

2. It wasn't about oil. We didn't get our oil from Iraq in the first place. And demand of oil wasn't such that we needed more than the current supply.

3. The US sat back when Clinton was in office while a million Rwandan Tutsies were killed. A FREAKING MILLION people!! We also sat back for the Somalian civil war. These weren't matters of national security for us but the UN should have done something. Personally I think the UN is a joke unless it can back up it's resolutions and policies with force. Post 9/11 we are taking into account the current status of other countries and evaluating the threat they play to Americans and the world. We now will take action if it is warranted... and Saddam's regime fit the bill.
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Postby David » 06 Jun 2003 20:00

Proactive on world issues ?

Illegally invading another country and killing 5000 of its people to control its oil (it is controlling its oil as we speak) and to give out massive contracts to big corporations closely linked to the US Government?

Saddam is evil but why did the US support him in chemical weapons and in finances throughout the entire 1980s ?
He was "America's man in the Middle East".
Rumsfeld even met him in Baghdad in December 1983-shook his hand.
Pictures of this are on the net.

Why did the US abstain from UN proposed sanctions against Sadaam for using WMD in 1986 ?
Why did companies like HP,Kodak and Dupont aid his weapons programs ?
Why did Becthel build a chemical plant in Iraq in 1988 ?
Becthel always has leading US Government officals on its payroll and now has a huge contact to re build Iraq.

Where are the WMD ?

Israel holds the record for defying UN sanctions and yet the US has supported this state in finances and weapons since 1948.The evil Sharon is supported by the US like Pinochet was in Chile like the 'Contras' in Nicaragua.

America being proactive saw the Shah being installed in the Iran in 1953-another evil leader.This action lit the touchpaper to what we have today.

Many environmentalists have said that the US oil will run out in 35 years.
The US had used Iraqi oil continually up to 1990.
There are written reports from Roosevelt to Churchill in 1944 stating that the US was envious of Britain's control of Iran and Iraqi oil fields.

The UN has its flaws but its main aim in stopping a World War has been a success.

IRAQ WAS NO THREAT TO THE US.
2/3 of the country is starving-its army is poorly equipped.This has been clearly shown by the recent events.It was not a war.It was not even a fair contest.
No links to AL Qaeda have ever been found.Quite the opposite in fact-Saddam a secular leader and Bin Laden have personality clashes.
Iraq was a soft target and the US needed a soft target to show the world it was back after 911.

You mention Somalia-the US were involved in Somalia and when pictures were shown of US troops being dragged down the streets to the US public-the US pulled out.
The US public did not see the real images of the Iraq conflict.The media was censored by the corporations themselves to win the ratings war.

America's problem is that the Defence (sic) Industry is a major if not the major industry.
It employs alot of people and makes a lot of people rich.So this industry needs justification -and if that means 18 year olds from Texas with little job prospects or health insurance-joining the army and getting killed then so be it.

America needs war and it needs to control its people through fear of a terrorist attack.

War is terrorism on a bigger budget.

American foreign policy is based on greed.No justice or morals that is why the CIA trained Bin laden in 1990 and the US gave the Taliban regime-another oppressive regime-millions in 2000.America is the biggest supporter of terrorism in the world.

I urge you to watch 'Bowling for Columbine' by Michael Moore or read Naom Chomsky or Chris Hedges.
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Postby Supraset » 07 Jun 2003 03:57

Hey David...

w0w there are a lot of things to answer in your post. Even though I see your location as Rochester NY I get the distict impression you're not an American. Mainly because some of your statements are ignorant in terms of the US. But let me try to answer a few of your questions.

The U.S. war on Iraq was not illegal. While it may have been horrible it was not illegal. The UN does not make any laws, it is not a world government. Maybe Saddam thought it was illegal?

While we do supply some of the worlds oil we mainly consume it... and we do this by trade with other countries. Iraq is not one of those countries. And the worlds supply was not such that we needed to go to war just to obtain 'control' of it. Nor could I ever imagine it being so.

I am also closely watching who comes out with the contracts to rebuild Iraq... I agree it shouldn't go to those with conflicting interests.
(Man I'm just through your first sentence!!)

I don't need to see WMD to justify going to war with Iraq although it is a big concern for other countries. As I stated earlier radioactive material is missing from Iraq and that can be used as a WMD.

WMD was not the only reason to go to war with Iraq. In 1991, UN Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities -- which, the Council said, "threaten(ed) international peace and security in the region."

Saddam had earlier had 100,000 Kurds gassed to death. I don't see how one can support someone like this. Leave him in power and many people would continue to die at his hands.

We have sovereign authority to use force in assuring of our own national security. Saddam could have stopped the war from happening had he disarmed, or left the country. But he didn't.

I don't like war... it's sad and ironic that we have to "enforce" future world peace. But humanity just isn't at the point yet where we can "talk" our way out of things. Sad sad sad...
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Postby Supraset » 07 Jun 2003 04:15

Thought I would break up the post a little to confront your other issues.

I agree Iraq was not a threat. Saddam was the major threat... and he is now gone from power.

The UN may have helped to avert a WWIII but it hasn't been very successful in keeping countries from killing millions of their own (see Rwanda, Somalia, former Yugoslavia)

America did not invent war or defense industries and does not need war to support it's economy. We are not the biggest supporter of terrorists... this is ignorant. We have, like all other countries, made some poor decisions in the past. I have no doubt we will make more in the future. But none of the stuff you mention has to deal with the war on Iraq. We gave arms to Afghanistan in 1979 to keep Russia from invading. Would you have rather we have let Russia invade? Let's stick to the topic at hand.
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Postby David » 07 Jun 2003 15:25

Generally speaking according to a Gallup poll in March 85% of the world were against this war(59% in the US and 23% in former Yugoslavia).

Where is the democracy in that ?

I am not ignorant.I am a peace activist here in the US and I can back up anything I have said with references.

The war was illegal as it was not sanctioned by the UN.

According to International Law set by the Nuremberg trials -those who carry out aggressive acts against or without international consent is a war criminal.
Bush and Blair are war criminals.

You say Saddam gassed thousands and no one should support this-why did the US support him then in the 1980s ?

How was Sadaam a threat to the US ?

The world is better now that he is gone but why is the US supporting Musharref in Pakistan ?

The US should follow Canada in its foreign policy.
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Postby Supraset » 07 Jun 2003 18:07

Like I said earlier the U.S. has made mistakes in foreign policy and I'm sure it is making mistakes now and will make mistakes in the future. But this is not limited to America. No country is perfect.

I feel every country needs to take it upon themselves and accept responsibility for the safety of not only it's citizens but the citizens of the world.

The UN was created after World War II almost specifically to stop dictators like Hitler to threaten world peace. Now for the most part the UN has been successful and by establishing a security council it put some muscle behind it's wishes. But the UN does not make laws. It is not a world government. It says so on their web site.

Saddam was a threat in that he was a powerful dictator (though not on the scale of Stalin or Hitler) and he had radioactive material from when he had attempted to make nuclear bombs. Our concern was that he would give this material to terrorists... we were also hoping to find chemical weapons that he might also give to terrorists (this hasn't happened yet. But we have found the known to exists radioactive material and some of it is missing. Terrorists can use this to create mass destruction and death on a scale difficult to comprehend.

I understand a lot of the world wasn't with the US on removing Saddam from power and I truly am surprised. The sad fact is that peace in modern times needs to ironically be inforced... i think this is sad that we can't talk our problems out. But this is a flaw of man... not America.We are often seen as a big bully and many people have the misconception we are imperialists and exploit other countries to gain wealth.

The fact is that the US is a hard working country with the largest Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in the world. We are made up of immigrants from all over the world that are looking for a better life than those offered in their previous country. We work this hard for the most part because we enjoy the freedom afforded by our government.

Every four years we have elections to replace our president, a person can serve at most 2 terms. If the country doesn't agree with what Bush is doing he won't be reelected. Maybe the possibly newly elected president will take a more "we won't bother you if you don't bother us" approach but I personally don't think this is wise. I also don't think we should go in and forcefully remove every dictator that is in power and poses a possible threat to the US... in this sense I do think the US made Iraq it's example. A warning to other countries not to harbour terrorists. Again sad that we had to do this at all. But war is in the history of man... and continues to be.[/b]
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Postby David » 11 Jun 2003 20:25

Points taken but to be fair-all Americans should be ashamed of the Bush Administration.

They are a bunch of evil lying bastards.

They have totally shown contempt for the rest of the world and for the UN.
If everyone acted like this the world would collapse into chaos.

They spread 7 false stories about France.
Thye lied about Iraq's WMD-even using a student's thesis written 12 years ago as evidence to the UN.
They shredded 8000 pages of Iraq's weapons report.

They also show utter contempt for the environment and they have killed 5000 Iraqis.I hope they have many uncomfortable nights ahead.

I see 'Proud to be an American' flags around-you should be ashamed to be American when it comes to politics.
I am ashamed as a human that this illegal war happened.

The US does not own the world.
It is the biggest terrorist state.Fact.

It will go to war every 10 years at the most becuase the Defence Industry needs it,the economy needs it.

American kids will die for Exxon.

A very strange f***ed up country at times.
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Postby Supraset » 12 Jun 2003 05:07

David I will make a note not to invite you to my "4th of July I love America Stars and Stripes Bar-B-Q!!"

But I think some of the things you accuse us of, all powerful nations have been guilty of.

The WORLD is a pretty STRANGE f***ed up place... we just get the most press. Wars and attrocities against humans and the environment are being committed all over the world as we speak (errr type). And on the scale much larger than 5000 people. And believe it or not they have nothing to do with America. The world is a pretty sick place. Man's history is both brutal and dark.

But the world and man has it's moments too.
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Postby David » 20 Jun 2003 17:58

Phew that's okay then.
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Postby Supraset » 21 Jun 2003 03:37

25 million people have died from AIDS around the world. Approximately 65 million people have HIV. If you're concerned with saving life and saving as much as possible. I suggest you start to work on a cure. Or help those that are infected.

Is it that you're so concerned about life and injustice or is it more that you are upset that the US is so powerful of a force and you cannot control it?
Does the US have something you wish other countries have? Do you feel they have got what they have by unscrupulous means? Don't waste your life trying to control which is out of your reach.
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Postby David » 23 Jun 2003 19:46

I think we are going around in circles here-so this is my last post on the topic.

AIDS is a natural disaster that can be controlled through various means if applied over a long long time such as education and contraceptions..Funny that you conveniantly mention that as the US has just given huge financial aid to Africa(at the same time as the US's own economy goes down the pan)

I am concerned about the Iraq war which was man made by men who have complete contempt for international law,the UN,the world and indeed all of us.
In my 27 years on this earth the Iraq war is the most depressing thing I have seen.
Eveything has beome futile in the 'West'.
Democracy has collapsed.The 60%of American polled in February against unilateral strikes have been ignored.The 2 million people who marched in London have been ignored.The UN and international law has been ignored.
5567 Iraqis and over 160 Americans are now dead.
And for what ?
Iraq is in total turmoil so an evil dictator that the US helped to create has been removed.

Democracy has collapsed.We are run by benign dictatroships.
As soon as 911 happened and the first speches of Bush about Saddam- all of a sudden-I thought and many thought-no way will he get away with this.
Well he has.

A war based on lies.From day 1 we knew it would be a war about lies.Anyone with half an interest in Iraq will know that it was no more of a threat to the US than poverty stricken Cuba is.We knew it did not have any weapons of mass destruction-Hans Blix couldn't find any!
We knew secular Saddam had no ties with 911 quite the opposite in fact.

Then we had Fox and CNN telling us that Iraq would attack the US with pilotless planes controlled by Baghdad.I have the links to the stories if you want them.
Lies were being spread by the Bush junta-supported by the media who wanted to win the ratings war.Swallowed up by patriots.
And now Iraq has been shown to be no threat.No WMDs.

No country has the right to invade another.No one.
That policy is something we have controlled with measurable success since 1945 with the help of the UN.
The US disragards international law.This is dangerous to mankind-even to me and you.
It is also plainy bribing other countries to support their policies.
Belgium is the latest.

France has been racially condemned for standing up for common sense and those pro-war say it is only because France have invested interests!
So even people standing up for peace are ridiculed.
The amount of pure racist bile I have heard about France has been sickening.

I hope 4th of July festivities are toned down but I doubt it.
I am half American and because of what has happened I am now a potential victim of terrorists.
So are British people like 808 Stat when they travel as Britain has been shown up to be a US puppet.

We have entered a dangerous time as the US becomes more and more like Nazi Germany every day from the Patriot Acts to the No Child left alone acts.
Iran,Syria,Cuba and other 'axis of evil' states will be next.

Where will it end-how many deaths?
And all because the top 1% of Americans can become richer and richer.

This affects us all.
Last edited by David on 23 Jun 2003 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 23 Jun 2003 19:48

War is becoming a rapidly out-dated concept and the global peace movement has never been bigger, stronger or more connected. :)

We live in a rapidly changing world - the mass global opposition to the war, even if it was marketed as getting rid of someone with a record like Saddam shows how the world feels.

The opposition to the war was within a whisker of bringing down the Blair government (it was only through last minute, very shrewd phone calls to MP's and lies that there wasn't a bigger rebellion ie most MP's weren't voting on whether to go to war - they were voting for their jobs).

Bush and Blair are war criminals - there is no doubting that. Apart from the fact that it was an illegal war, they are also war criminals for the way the war was conducted - for the use of such charming methods as depleted uranium (a nuclear by-product that causes sickening birth defects and can be carried in a grain of sand) and cluster bombs. Conduct such as this is illegal, and goes against any law or convention.

Like the two Americans said it comes down to money and when individuals and governments come to the realisation that they can make money without war the utopia and a secure, sustainable future can be become a reality.

I went to a World Peace congress recently in Italy, sponsored by, among others, UNESCO and UNICEF. There were representatives from the World Bank who all agreed that a world without war is economically viable and there shall be much greater measures in the future to attain this. :)

Peace, love and positive vibes to all - may peace reign on earth! :)

Spread love all over the world. :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 23 Jun 2003 19:48

War is becoming a rapidly out-dated concept and the global peace movement has never been bigger, stronger or more connected. :)

We live in a rapidly changing world - the mass global opposition to the war, even if it was marketed as getting rid of someone with a record like Saddam shows how the world feels.

The opposition to the war was within a whisker of bringing down the Blair government (it was only through last minute, very shrewd phone calls to MP's and lies that there wasn't a bigger rebellion ie most MP's weren't voting on whether to go to war - they were voting for their jobs).

Bush and Blair are war criminals - there is no doubting that. Apart from the fact that it was an illegal war, they are also war criminals for the way the war was conducted - for the use of such charming methods as depleted uranium (a nuclear by-product that causes sickening birth defects and can be carried in a grain of sand) and cluster bombs. Conduct such as this is illegal, and goes against any law or convention.

Like the two Americans said it comes down to money and when individuals and governments come to the realisation that they can make money without war the utopia and a secure, sustainable future can be become a reality.

I went to a World Peace congress recently in Italy, sponsored by, among others, UNESCO and UNICEF. There were representatives from the World Bank who all agreed that a world without war is economically viable and there shall be much greater measures in the future to attain this. :)

Peace, love and positive vibes to all - may peace reign on earth! :)

Spread love all over the world. :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby Supraset » 23 Jun 2003 21:02

Damn you guys sound like communists... or socialists.

Am I to understand that in the last 27 years the most depressing thing that happened in the world is the war in Iraq?

Where were you when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979-89 where 14,000 Soviets and 1,000,000 Afghans died (yes that's a million and it's a conservative estimate).

War is going on elsewhere in the world right now and on a much larger scale than that of the Iraq war.

War is not an outdated concept (though it should be). It's going on all over the world. Is it fashionable just to pick on the US or is it that the US embodies all of that you hate about war? I say probably a little of both.

Look up current wars on the internet... Let's see if you get no hits.

Peace is an honorable movement but don't be blinded by thinking that the US and England may be your only obstacles. By saying that war is only a problem that exists in America is racist by your own accord.
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