War

Discuss non-musical topics that are not related to 808 State or music.

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Postby Dr.Walsh » 23 Jun 2003 21:43

Dear Supraset,

If you read what I was saying I am in no way saying that war is restricted to the United States - I am simply saying that Bush, Blair and John Howard (and many others around them) are war criminals, as is Saddam Hussein and many other people around the world. I am in no way 'picking' on the United States, Britain or Australia, if you read what I said properly you would be able to see this.

America, Britain and Australia are great nations who have done many good things around the world and have a lot to be proud of - I would not deny that. I love living in Britain and have also lived for a while in America and Australia where I thoroughly enjoyed my time - the people were friendly and I loved the nature - the birds, butterflies, flowers and countryside. :)

All these countries have huge multi-cultural populations that live together in mutual respect and harmony, give each other support , love each other and are building together towards a positive, sustainable, peaceful future. :)

However, whether you like it or not, in the past America, Britain and Australia have committed many atrocities and at present continue to pursue out-dated imperialist policies. They are not the only ones manipulating, fighting and degrading other countries and I would not suggest such a thing at this point in time as it is not true.

It was never mentioned that the war 'was the most depressing thing to happen in the world in the last 27 years' nor was it suggested. But it is a contemporary issue and the one we are talking about.

I also didn't say that war is an out-dated concept I said '... war is becoming an out-dated concept...' as more and more hearts and minds are awakened to the concept that a world without war is attainable, and that we have reached a stage in evolution where world peace is possible.

I wish you peace and send positive vibes :)

Spread love all over the world :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby Supraset » 24 Jun 2003 00:14

Dr. Walsh,

The 27 years thing... that was directed towards David (read his post above).

The war as an outdated concept was directed towards your post.

Dr. Walsh I agree with a lot of what you say... if you read the whole thread (actually I wouldn't want to if I were you or anyone :) ) you will see we have a lot of the same things to say.

Though I wouldn't call the US, England, or the Aussies imperialists. Now if we start to control Iraq's oil for our profits then I would recant and would hope it would not go on for long.

One of my major points in these whole threads is that attrocities against humans and the environment take place all over the world... and most of them that have been cause of mass deaths (I'm talking >= 100k people) have not been due solely to the US.

Like I say peace is a very honorable and notable cause and I commend you for wanting peace. However I don't foresee it outdating war as a solution anytime soon. You could have quite possibly a million people wanting peace and those million people can easily be mowed down by one man who has absolute power over a country and its weapons. (See Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein).

Were just not at that point in human evolution where words and negotiating take precedence over actions. However, if you can prove me wrong I will be happy to see that and we can all have a beer at the world peace cafe. I will definitely buy the first round for everyone on the board as we listen to Ancodia!!!!! :)
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 24 Jun 2003 01:00

Make mine a mango juice! :)

"Stop all the killing - love is the answer!" :)
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Postby David » 24 Jun 2003 20:57

Seems to be a European thing that we can separate a country,its people and its Government.

I could list a ton of things the Bush Administration has done to screw the average ordinary American.

In my personal experience it was the most depressing thing.
I always had trust in the "West".
Rogue states will always be rogue states.

As I've said in an original post-you expect more from supposedly the best country in the world.
It does not boil down to being a socialist (though I am)-it boils down to being a human!

Anyway this site is to bring 808ers together so don't take my views personally(plus I've actually praised the US in other music posts!).
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Postby Supraset » 25 Jun 2003 02:23

David,

I don't hold your personal views against you...

all of my best friends HATE, DESPISE, would like to kill, Bush... and we get along ok. I think we're just adding some spice to the 808 BB.

Plus I like to hear what others have to say and debate so then I can see how strong my stance is. It challenges my views and helps me understand what I may be missing.

But honestly the US govt ain't that bad. It is easy to dream up a theory of utopia and how the world should work, but we live in a real world that learns essentially from mistakes.

I think it's important to remember where you're at in time right now. A couple hundred years ago most countries were run by Kings or Queens, then there were peasant uprisings creating the Americas and communist (more advanced socialism) Soviets, in the 40's we had a guy (Hitler) try to take over the world, at present there are many dictators and mass killings are happening around the world... look at former Yugoslavia just a few years back where people were fighting over race and religion, at present there are certain muslims and jews with nothing but pure contempt for each other blowing women and children up. You have the US which is so freaked out about what a few cult like terrorists can do that we are willing to go to war to make an example of present dictators. Now look at the future... do you know what the answer is? Can you say for sure? What would you do in a govt seat?

You're living in an experiment that is thousands of years old... good vs evil. Utopia has yet to be achieved. Govt has no easy solution... I wouldn't want their jobs.
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 25 Jun 2003 11:08

Supraset,

Have you read 'Stupid White Men' by Michael Moore?

Unlike your friends I don't hate or despise or want to kill Mr.Bush, Mr.Blair or Mr.Howard but like I said before they are out-dated and out of touch with what is really going on in the world.

If they were in touch with what is really going on they wouldn't have caused the biggest global demonstrations EVER in the history of the humans - and before a war even started!

And 'good vs. evil' (in my opinion) is an out-dated concept aswell - have you been watching too much Star Wars? :wink:

In my opinion, we are all just learning. No-one knows it all and no-one is free from the law of karma. That, to me, is one of the beauties of life -
no-one can dominate another for too long - karma does not allow this, and it is pretty stupid to even try (in my opinion).

Peace and positive vibes young Jedi, may the peace be with you :wink:

Spread love all over the world :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby Supraset » 25 Jun 2003 14:59

Dr. Walsh,

No I haven't read any Michael Moore... I don't place much political value in views from a disgruntled laid off factory worker (He is from Michigan the state in which I live, he started his "political" conspiracies after he was laid off... fight the power!!). But I will try to read it and I'm waiting for Bowling For Columbine to come out on DVD... I'll let you know when I have seen them and what I think.

I'm not a warsie either... just a realist.
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Postby Supraset » 25 Jun 2003 17:06

Dr. Walsh,

also yes the US government did essentially ignore all of the world protesters.

But I have a question for you. Would it have been better that we left Iraq as it was under the oppressive dictatorship of Saddam Hussein? A life where hundreds of thousands of people have disappeared and most likely killed because of whatever pissed off Saddam. How about a peace rally to end dictatorships??

I know and understand there are A LOT of people that want world peace(me included). Why not try to run for positions in government and try to put your plans into action? It's much harder than it looks.

I'm all for your peace rallies I think you should give it a go. I would participate if I was in the area. But as you see when push comes to shove it is the people in the higher positions that ultimately make the decisions.
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 25 Jun 2003 18:30

Hi,

The Stop The War movement was always for the removal of Saddam Hussein - I do not know anyone globally who was pro-Saddam Hussein. The Stop The War movement in UK was always about finding alternative ways of removing Saddam Hussein and empowering the Iraqi people.

This wasn't what Bush and Blair wanted as it seems they made a deal ages ago to go to war. This is being said by several prominent members of Mr.Blair's government, who also claim he lied and falsified information. These claims seem to be very credible.

Like I said before, and you may or may not have heard this, but there was a House Of Commons vote on whether to go to war or not. This came after a heavy military build-up and what appear to be a series of lies.

The days and evenings before the vote many top people in the Blair government were telephoning MP's pretty much saying that they were voting on their jobs as if the vote had gone against Mr.Blair it would have brought the government down. In the end Mr.Blair suffered the biggest rebellion of his career and the vote only got through with the support of the right-wing opposition - the Conservative Party. I suspect if the majority of MP's had been voting on what their hearts told them and what the people who voted them in wanted instead of voting on their jobs there would have been no British military presence in Iraq.

During the war itself many atrocities and war crimes were committed by the West (as I said before - the use of depleted uranium, cluster bombs, etc) and they have failed to find any WMD's or capture Saddam Hussein.
There are many Iraqis who consider themselves as worse off as they were under Saddam Hussein, some even worse.

I know people who went out as human shields who travelled around Iraq and witnessed atrocities carried over from the '91 war such as the birth defects caused by the use of depleted uranium - that was before the '03 war started.

Every day now there are huge protests all over Iraq urging Western troops to leave the country. This does not yet seem like freedom or liberation to me or many people around the world.

The most clarified, unified voice on earth right now is the voice of peace and is getting louder every day. The recent series of global events - far from increasing the popularity of Mr.Bush, Mr.Blair and Mr.Howard - has just consolidated and strengthened the global peace movement. Certainly Mr. Blair has managed to politicise a whole generation over here through the Stop The War movement. I know 12 year olds in this country who know more about the real political situation in Iraq than I do.

He has also managed to bring together people on the same wave-length and integrate many Muslims who now stand side-by-side in peace with people they were not likely to know or have contact with in the past.

I urge you to get 'Stupid White Men'. The facts I have read about American domestic and foreign policy in that book are fairly worrying (and that is just the facts - not Michael Moore's opinion). The title is spot on - too much is controlled by stupid white men, but this is changing rapidly. That is why I have massive hope for the future.

I feel some sympathy for the American people having to live under the propaganda of their media. The media is bad enough over here but appears to be much worse over there. Even the head of the British Broadcasting Corporation (the main TV and radio station in Britain) spoke out against the American medias' portrayal of the war. That is quite something!

Also, do you know about the 9/11 Families For Peaceful Tomorrows? Everyone who is in this group lost family in 9/11 but were against military action in Iraq and didn't want families in Iraq to suffer the way they have. Some even went to Iraq before the war to see families and see what was happening for themselves.

I am all for peace rallies to end dictatorships aswell - this is a good idea. Perhaps it should be made an international event.

It is true that people in higher positions do make decisions, but they also have to be put in those positions and, equally, can be removed from those positions if they are deemed unsuitable. Just like anyone else, if they are not doing their job properly they can be, and are, removed.

There are many things we can do for peace without becoming a politician (but then again everything is politics really isn't it? But that's another discussion!) and without going on a peace rally (some of which are sometimes not that peaceful!)

I may be tempted into politics in the future. Unfortunately I haven't got the time at the moment! And I might do some more research first!

We live in strange times, extreme yin/yang ('the conflict between the generations' as the saying goes on one tune) - on the one hand there is this old energy playing itself out, while there is this whole new vibrant energy simmering and waiting to burst through, not just in Britain but all over the world.

Also, remember - the state of 808 is one of peace and harmony and of
spreading love all over the world :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby Supraset » 25 Jun 2003 18:57

Well said.

There are men that have too much power and abuse it. Unfortunately sometimes the only way they can be overthrown is through conflict. They doen't respond to peaceful rallies.

When I find the time I'll try to get a hold of Michael Moore's book to see where you are coming from. Although the title doesn't sound very unbiased :)

I rather like to get my information from scholars who have spent time studying cause and effect than a person who has just decided to enter the arena for entertainment value. In the US Michael Moore's views are held more for entertainment than actual historical fact. His background doesn't exactly help his cause. I don't believe he has any formal education. He is more of a tabloid type over here. But I will read his stuff nonetheless.
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Postby David » 25 Jun 2003 21:43

"the US Govt aint that bad"!

Helped put Pinochet in power in Chile
Killed 4 million Vietnamese and 55000 Americans in the Vietnam war
Trained Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda in Afghanistan
Supported PolPot in Combodia
Supported the Saddam reign of terror with finances and weapons in the 1980s
Florida has according to Time magazine up to a 100 war criminals from other countries residing at the request of the US Govt
Supported many terrorist groups in S America from the 'Contras' in Nicaragua to The Cell in Columbia
Has failed to fully integrate the African-American into society
Has failed to reduce the high poverty and crime levels in many US Cities-instead financially supporting foreign terrorists-Musharref is the latest
Rejected the Kyoto treaty
Ignores the International Criminal Court
Fabricated stories about France
Failed to present 8000 out of the 11000 pages of Iraq's report on WMD to the UN
Has utter contempt for the UN
Supports Israel-THE terrorist state since 1948
Has killed 5700 Iraqis in its annex of that country
Is attempting to overthrow Iran as we speak internally usuing the media-no doubts promising Iranians false dawns
Supported the oppressive Taliban regime before 911-particularly oppressive against women
Failed to act on 33 warnings that 911 was going to happen
Suppressed interim report on the 911 investigation
Has actively encouraged the No Child Left Alone act which allows the Military to actively brainwash and recruit young school leavers-more lambs to the slaughter
Dropped leaflets in Pakistan stating- "capture an Arab-feed your family for life"
which resulted in many innocents among the 680 detainess at Guantanamo Bay-which contravene the Geneva Conventions aswell as Human rights with no access to a lawyer at all
has impisoned over 1500 "Arabs" in the US since 911 with minimal rights
Despite EU cooperation after 911-the US splashed a 20% tax on EU steel imports
The US splashed large taxes on Canadian timber
The US must change its general trade laws by the Fall or it must pay millions to the EU in compensation
The US is trying to break up the EU-who it feels is a threat
The US has made its people hated in most parts of the world

I could go on!

I generally treat people as I find them so the "US" here I mean the Government.
It seems to me that the further North you go in the US-the more liberal the people are.
I am enjoying my everyday life here in the US but I don't think I will ever settle here.

The EU is far more advanced in social policies and public transport and is light years ahead in many respects-even in their attitude towards soft drugs and gays.

Even Canada-oft ridiculed by the US yet they seem to have less crime,cheaper health care and you will never see a plane flying into the CN tower in Toronto.

I am not picking on the US just pointing out some reasons why the US citizens are hated and could be targeted in the rest of the world-all thanks to the volatile Government.
It is nothing to do with jealously of the US weatlh or lifestyle -as I've said the EU has I believe a much higher standard of living.Norway and Canada came ahead of the US in the best countries to live according to the UN.
Another survey of the best cities by the Mercer Group in London put 5 Canadian cities in the top 25.Only 1 US city came in the top 25 (SanFran).

I can give you the link if you need.

Aswell as Michael Moore I can recommend anything by Naom Chomsky and Nelson Mandela gave a very moving speech in Ireland this week on US Government policy.

Interesting debate nonetheless and I hope we don't scare a 808er from a 808 site!!

Peace and Respect
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 25 Jun 2003 23:15

Yes David,

I agree with you. The US Government is living in a different world to a large number of the rest of the inhabitants of earth (a large percentage of Americans included).

Their attempts at domination are futile - haven't any of them done their research on history?

Domination just doesn't work! It's not a new concept and it's been tried many times before by many different races and it just doesn't work. There's just no need for it in these times when most of the world is getting on better and is more tolerant and multi-cultural, when we have the means to communicate and learn more about each other than ever before.

On a smaller scale the likes of Tony Blair and John Howard are also living in a different world.

They don't seem to understand karma - there's only so much you can get away with. It happens to everyone. No-one is exempt.

Peace and positive vibes :)

Spread love all over the world :)

'Dr.' Walsh :)


PS I doubt you will scare any 808'er from this site - as we all know the 808 State is a house nation state - one of peace, harmony, respect, nature and spreading love all over the world. :)
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Postby Supraset » 26 Jun 2003 04:11

David...

I thought you had stopped posting on this subject :) What country are you from? I can produce a similar list although I could debate endlessly on some of things on your lists they're simply not true (please I don't want to see your sources).

If you're so brilliant with politics why don't you try to change the world and run for a seat in government? (And a little known geographic fact were pretty far North UP here in Detroit. Detroit is due NORTH of Canada.)

Dr. Walsh

Huh? How has this post gone so horribly wrong? What makes you think the US is trying to dominate the world? WTF??

All I hear from you two is bitching and moaning... the US does this the US has done that. The EU is so much better than the US (but I live/lived in the US)... so if we're so far behind then why do you care? Or if you want to change the US how are you going to do it? I have not heard any viable solutions from either one of you.

Here's a challenge to the both you. Go read Michael Moore and Naom Chomsky, and listen to Nelson Mandela... go find whomever you need. Now pick a dictator.... any dictator (maybe you think Bush is a dictator... pick him) now try to peacefully remove that dictator from power. Get back and post again when you have successfully completed this. I will give you my humble apologies.
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Postby Dr.Walsh » 26 Jun 2003 13:19

Supraset,

I wouldn't call Davids list of what the USA has done 'bitching and moaning'. They are facts. If Saddam Hussein had done the same or on a similar scale would you be calling it 'bitching and moaning'? I doubt it.

Neither of us has said that the USA is the only country who is doing negative stuff - and none of it is a personal attack on you (you seem to be taking some of this personally - there is no need, we are your brothers). When we have said USA we are refering to the government, not the majority of its people, who, as I've said mainly live in peace, harmony, tolerance, respect and understanding.

I was born in England. Now, if someone wrote a list of some of the negative stuff England has done in the past I would sit down, read it and say 'fair do's' (fair enough in Mancunian), I know the country I was born in (in this life) has done some pretty negative stuff and that is why I am doing something about it.

Like I say, I was born in England, and my immediate family are/have been Labour Party supporters. When the Labour Party got in it was considered a new dawn in England. I wasn't that bothered about politics but I thought it seemed pretty good a Labour Party Prime Minister. Now, I have seen what Mr.Blair has done I, and many, many people across the country want to see him gone - and won't put up with any more negative policies.

I can admit that the country I was born in does negative things - I accept this fact as it is true.

A majority of the world now consider America the biggest threat to world peace. Are they all wrong? No, they see what is happening.

I love America as much as I love anywhere in the world - we live in a truly, beautiful world and I would like to see the world living in peace that is why I say what I do. The fact is, is that the world is going to be a more stable place when the Bush Administration are no longer in power. And from the latest world polls I have seen I would have a large majority of the world agreeing with me.

Peace and positive vibes :)

Spread love all over the world :)

Dr.' Walsh :)
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Postby JD » 26 Jun 2003 14:27

War, huh.
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