repeat mix

Discuss 808 State and related.

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PeteZarustica
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Post by PeteZarustica »

this is what I've found - sorry if took me to much time:

Track 04 Leo Leo (featuring Raagman)
Track 06 Leo Leo (featuring Raagman)

Track 4 source might be analogue,
there's hiss and a DC difference from -inf dB - while track 6 is perfectly mastered. Other fact is that Track 4 has it's phase inverted already which is wierd and makes no sense. But it could be another proof that it is taken from an analogue master, 'cos it could be transfered accidently with a phase corrector turned on within 180o or with a wierd mix desk. Maybe as it was done in Japan it's unavoidable, since they're upside down ;)

RMS value of track 04 -15,668 dB L -16,190 dB R

Track 6 source might be digital: RMS value -17,409 dB L -17,381 dB R

Track 4 is 0,0018 times faster and it has variations on speed (0,0034 to 0,001). That means only one thing, source was a tape. All analogue recording techniques produce noise, and the analogue tape, besides the white noise it adds - even slightly - it also creates a tiny tiny speed variation. I'm not comparing it to bpms - which would be inaccurate since the source isn't 100% digital. Graham used to edit at that time with knives and scissors, on the fly, and not all sequencing was necessarily done by the same sequencer. So the variation on speed was checked using the other track as reference.

Other idea that came to my head was that both tracks could be from the same source and one of them was re-mastered - just like happened in the 303 mixes. But my guess is that it isn't - this argument was broken by one test, it's silly, but it convinced me. The difference in RMS power values between the two mixes are not stable nor identical, channel to channel. Which means that if someone took track 6 and applied a compressor - even analogue, actually especially analogue - it would boost the RMS by equal on both sides. So while the difference from Left-4 to left-6 is 1,74 dB, the difference between Right-4 to Right-6 should be the same in thesis, but is 1,19 dB.

Sorry if it's all too boring, but point is: They're the same mix, different sources.
markus
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Post by markus »

Fascinating! I love these analyses! Many Thanks Pete!! :)
solarex
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Post by solarex »

PeteZarustica wrote:this is what I've found - sorry if took me to much time:

Track 04 Leo Leo (featuring Raagman)
Track 06 Leo Leo (featuring Raagman)
Interesting and nerdy. I can see you've had some fun.

But be careful with your conclusions. Some of the values you measure are so close it can come from just about anywhere.

If it is an analogue tape the vaiation can come from just playing the tape back on different days or different decks.

The A/D converter on a digital compressor or an analogue compresser will have slightly different gain on the two channels.

If the source is a digital tape, in CD format, it is not transfered directly onto CD. That's for sure, because then they would be alike. But just the conversion digital master -> analogue -> CD master can, in my opinion, make the level variations you mention.

The pressens of noise in one of them sounds like slobbyness somewhere.

I do not own the JP CD, so I cannot check it out for myself. Would love to though. You have tricked by curiousity.
Last edited by solarex on 14 Oct 2005 07:58, edited 3 times in total.
solarex
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Post by solarex »

nickking wrote:Yeah, I played that recently to listen to Pacific Original, but found Pacific 303 instead... Dunno why I hadn't noticed it earlier?

Think someone at ZTT pressed the wrong track on it?

Dunno about the EQ bit - didn't listen to them that closely! :)
Same goes for the dreadful S12 re-release. Bwdr.
PeteZarustica
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Post by PeteZarustica »

The A/D converter on a digital compressor or an analogue compresser will have slightly different gain on the two channels.
Yes! Slightly, but this is not what I guess. Anyways, these are just guessing over facts, you probably know more than I do :)

I don't thin they've been through compressors though, the spectrum is pretty much the same.

And there's more, when you convert from DAT to CD there's always a subtle improve in the frequencies around 18K and a subtraction above that, since DAT is 48kHz and CD is 44.1kHz, and you can notice the hiss in track 06. This is why I believe it was transfered directly from DAT to CD :)
solarex
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Post by solarex »

PeteZarustica wrote:And there's more, when you convert from DAT to CD there's always a subtle improve in the frequencies around 18K and a subtraction above that, since DAT is 48kHz and CD is 44.1kHz, and you can notice the hiss in track 06. This is why I believe it was transfered directly from DAT to CD :)
Exactly. That is where you either have your analogue link or a digital filter/resampler, which neither two DSP processors or even two sessions on the same equipment do the same. This explains the difference that will always be.

Also. Why is there two "identical" versions on the same CD? If it was the same CD master you wouldn't put it on twice. It must be because two different tapes, further back in the process, was thought to be different.
PeteZarustica
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Post by PeteZarustica »

Yes :) That's why I think one was digital (DAT) and the other analogue.
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